Overall and line-by-line response to the h8ers in the CD comments on my 9-11 Inclusion piece.
Oops. Comparing pain.
I should not have said Muslims were “the part of our community most severely impacted by Sept 11,” I should have said “a part.” My point was not intended to compare traumas nor to offend anyone by claiming a superlative on pain. My point was to address the suffering Middle Eastern communities have faced since 9/11, which I felt went unspoken at the 9/11 events. The point was to emphasize the effects of violence/prejudice/racism from anti-Muslim sentiments – not to say that these problems are worse than the suffering of the people who lost family and friends that day. These problems are large, not larger than others. I’m sorry that my writing was not clear. I think this line in particular pissed off a lot of people and really distracted them from my intended message. Their thoughts are clearly blinded by anger and I don’t think my message was received by many. I wonder if they would have actually considered my point had this line been different. This really bothers me as a writer; I really should have edited more carefully.
On the issue of unity.
I don’t see how the event planners can claim unity when so many students did not feel included, hence my article. Planning an event “for everyone” “as a whole” necessarily elides difference. “Unity” is achieved by appealing to the least common denominator, which is to say, the dominant culture. In this case, White Amurika. By claiming the event was for the “entire student body,” any non-normative identity or perspective gets homogenized away and erased. Some call this whitewashing. “Unity” is a great excuse to prevent critical thinking. Even if we did achieve “unity,” what for if nothing changes?
What remembrance events should be about.
The goal of the 9-11 event absolutely should have been to discuss and repair divisions among us; this is a university whose goal is educating the nations’ citizenry. Remembrance, Togetherness, Unity etc. are useless. Mourning and grieving are equally useless– the victims are dead and we can’t bring them back. Sorry if that’s callous, but the truth hurts, and wallowing in grief won’t help anyone, dead or alive. I personally have no time for grief. What we need now is a way to move forward to lessen the tensions that caused the violence in the first place. Honoring a memory must be active or it is in vain. Somber reflection means nothing if it doesn’t change our future behavior and actions. The goal of remembrance activities should not be to make us feel warm, fuzzy, and united. Remembrance events should address the issues that brought us to this point and repair the damage that has been done to prevent similar violence from ever happening again.
Names!
Have the courage to sign your real name and leave an email address. If you don’t believe what you are saying enough to claim your own words, how can I give you any credibility, and how could I respond?
Bemoaning multicultural issues.
This is such a privileged thing to say, it’s disgusting. We “multicultural” folks wouldn’t have to “bemoan” any “issues” if the dominant culture accepted us and included us respectfully. And using the word “bemoan” seeks to belittle the human claim we are making, so shove it, and listen up.
Line-by-line.
Annoyed and Offended
Mr. Kaye, it seems that you missed the whole point of the 9/11 remembrance event.
No, I got the point they were presenting, and I was disgusted.
This was not an event designed to discuss the divisions among us or to bemoan multicultural issues in America.
It absolutely should have discussed our divisions – how else can we repair them? Lighting candles? And I resent your use of the word “bemoan.”
Rather, students put this event together as a means of uniting the student body- as a whole- in mourning a tremendous loss and in pondering the lessons learned.
I don’t think much pondering or lesson learning happens when none of the events are actually about learning, dialoguing, discussing, or hearing another point of view.
These students made a valiant effort to look beyond political schisms and disagreements so that they could pay tribute.
Yes the dominant culture is so valiant, it leaps over anything that gets in its way or might be difficult, and wastes its time paying tribute to itself instead of trying to fix any problems. Smart.
This was not, nor should it have been, about building up the barriers between us and engaging in heated rhetoric.
Nobody is advocating more barriers be set up – but the planning of these events certainly pointed out where the barriers do exist. Dialogue is best when calm and recognizing the human claim of the other person.
Sure, our society has shown prejudice against Muslims. Sure, this is a problem that needs to be addressed.
Yes. And the University’s response should have done so.
That being said, taking away the power and unity of the 9/11 events
They never were powerful for me and those who felt excluded.
which did in fact include Muslim perspectives,
This is simply not true. I wouldn’t have written the article if Muslim perspectives had been explicitly included.
“in order to service a political agenda”
I certainly have many agendas, and won’t apologize for them, nor take the blame for being ‘exploitive,’ but this article is not about politicking. It’s about respecting minority people enough to include them in decision making processes.
is frankly offensive to all individuals who lost loved ones and others in the midst of the terrorist attacks.
See my first point about comparing loss, “Oops.”
Why strip the band-aids from these wounds to the American spirit when they have not yet healed?
I think you missed the entire point of my article – the divides and tensions are high which you note as well; wounds have not healed – which is exactly why we need to address them in an academic setting. Furthermore, I do not like the ‘American spirit’ as presented– it removes our unique perspectives and is generally a hegemonic force, which I find harmful.
Your piece makes it clear that you value the Muslim population highly, and for that you deserve to be commended- but not too highly.
Thanks?
In fact, in making broad statements and judgments in which you claim that Muslims in general were, as a blanket statement, more affected than the countless students, faculty members, administrators and the like who suffered human losses, you discredit your stance and come across as exploitative.
Ugh. Didn’t mean to. See first point above.
To level accusations of prejudice and exploitation against a large portion of the student body in order to service an activist agenda and personal political feelings represents rank hypocrisy of the highest order.
I never said student leaders here are prejudiced. I said that they don’t think.
This article exploits a tragic event with sweeping repercussions in an attempt to turn us towards a more divisive, cynical worldview, and in order to promote a cause that does little to console those who are mourning and remembering in this stormy climate.
I’m not sure what my activist or political agenda is that keeps getting mentioned beyond include minorities in decision making and respect their point of view. I do have a cynical worldview. Until the world, and dominant culture, are inclusive and respectful of everyone, I’ll be a cynic. I’m very distrustful when I see the huge institutional organizations get together. Why? Because they keep making decisions that harm or exclude minority students, and this is just one example. I hate mourning, and that is not what I want out of a 9-11 event. I guess you do. Wouldn’t it be nice if both of our needs were addressed with adequate programming?
Mr. Kaye, I applaud you for exercising your freedom of speech, and for putting forth your contentious opinions in undeniably important topics. However, I, and I do not feel that I am alone on this, would advise you not to exploit the pain of others, to make sweeping statements, or to enflame readers with your fiery and radical language through this medium.
What is so fiery, inflammatory, and radical about asking people to include those not at the table? This should be common courtesy. I believe your anger stems from me accidentally comparing pain. Again, sorry. If you think this piece is radical, we have bigger problems, so it’s no wonder I’m a cynic when facing this kind of cultural reaction.
This article seems almost designed not to appeal to anyone at the University, since you take on the issues in such an uncomfortable and hypocritical manner, and with such a harsh, condescending, and preachy style.
If it’s uncomfortable I’m doing my job – you only learn when you stretch yourself. Hypocritical? How so? Harsh, condescending, preachy? Probably… And you are too.
While your support of unabashed affirmative action and polarizing activism may find some supporters at this University, the rest of your content here will push even them away.
Whoah. Where did this come from? I never once talk about affirmative action. And again, I don’t think asking for more voices to be included in the planning of university wide events could be considered polarizing activism.
I recommend that pieces like this not be put forth to the public in the future. While I value the free expression of opinions, articles of this sort cast a negative light on the Cavalier Daily, and, by extension, on the University community. Why publish a piece that seems, by design, to offend, to exploit, and to irritate?
People always claim the CD shouldn’t print things they disagree with. I’ve said so about Ginny Robinson’s trashy pieces about gender. But this piece was not intended to offend, exploit, nor irritate. I feel like it was my failing as a writer and lost you at the top with the unintended comparison of harms.
Never Forget 9/11
This comment is intended for Seth Kaye’s “Trick Candles”- comments are closed for that article. Seth Kaye must have an incredibly inflated ego.
Yup. I sure do have a big one. Here we go! It’s interesting that this comment is on an article about the Student Alliance for Sexual Healing (SASH) where I am not quoted, clearly I’m so important that they know where to find me because I was quoted in previous articles about SASH.
There would be no other reason that he would think people want to read his completely unsubstantiated and disgustingly insensitive opinion. 1. “I looked through the proposed schedule of ribbons, flags, vigil, speeches and barbeque and thought I was reading events for July 4.” The tragedy and remembrance of September 11 is hardly an occasion for sarcastic humor. I guess you thought you were being cute. You are not.
Wasn’t trying to be sarcastic or cute, just expressing my distaste. I chose the July 4th metaphor because it is one of our most extreme days of nationalism, and that’s what I thought of when I saw the planned events – a chance to celebrate Amurika in all its arrogance and ignorance.
2. Somehow the “hordes of superb students” planning the University-wide Sept. 11 events left out the part of our community most severely impacted by Sept. 11. And who is that? Seth Kaye is either incredibly naive or despicably insensitive. There is not one “group” that can claim to be most severely impacted by September 11. September 11 affected everyone. And who are you, Seth Kaye, to tell anyone that they weren’t severely impacted by September 11. I think that the people who lost loved ones, were very severely impacted by Sept. 11. I find it offensive that you attempt to diminish the loss and the tragedy felt by others in the community.
Ugh. This was not what I was trying to sayyyyy. Really annoyed with myself for confusing you.
I have many Muslim friends. I realize that Sept. 11 affected them in many ways, but they have never insinuated that their pains were any greater than mine. I think that they would also agree that the remembrance of September 11 should not center around their trials, but should center on the lives of those lost. I think Student Council handled the remembrance events well.
Never preface any comments with “I have [X] friends” – you sound like an asshole. Even if I accidentally compared pains, I never asked for Muslims to be the center of attention – just included.
3. “It appeared pretty obvious to me that minority student organizations were not consulted originally in the planning for these Sept. 11 events.” I know it is a student newspaper and that the guidelines are not as strict as they would be for a real newspaper, but why do the editors let such suppositions come into print. The editor should have made this young man provide more evidence than that it “appears pretty obvious to him.” I really can’t be sure from reading this poorly written opinion whether or not minorities were consulted or whether or not Student Council was in communication with more minority groups or what the rationale was for the events schedules. I would think an opinion like this requires a source, a quote or something that would give the appearance that this author did not just decide 10 minutes ago to put all his uterations down on paper. It seems this response belongs in the comments section where sources and references and research are not required.
My facts are correct. I decided not to get into too much detail in the article because the point was not to blame individual student leaders (UPC), but to critique the culture – I didn’t want to air too much dirty laundry, but since you asked… As a member of the Representative Body of Student Council, I received an email from the Student Council members who were planning the 9-11 events with their proposed schedule, which I mentioned. I was skeptical and looked to see if the Minority Rights Coalition, Muslim Student Association, or Middle Eastern Leadership Council were included, and they weren’t. So I asked that they be included. They weren’t contacted until a few days later which I know because I was shown an email of the initial contact as well as forwarded a message that went out to many of the planning committee by the Arab Student Organization with many of the exact concerns I had – Muslim/Middle Eastern/Arab leaders weren’t consulted until the last minute and had only been working on the interfaith dialogue event for a week, and it was advertized before it was planned. The Diversity Initiatives panel discussion took even longer to plan and we didn’t get it on the schedule.
Finally, it seems to me this article is not about September 11 or about including more minorities into events at all. It seems to me that it is about Seth Kaye and his beef with Student Council.
There are a lot of things I would change about Council, that’s for sure. Entire cows worth of beef. But the article is not about Studco, it’s about our rude unthinking culture. And you write as if I’m just complaining from the outside, but I’m on Council – that’s how I have all this inside knowledge about how poorly Studco functions in our culture. I hope we can do better in the future.
Annoyed and Offended says:
September 19, 2011 at 10:34 pm
Mr. Kaye, it seems that you missed the whole point of the 9/11 remembrance event. This was not an event designed to discuss the divisions among us or to bemoan multicultural issues in America. Rather, students put this event together as a means of uniting the student body- as a whole- in mourning a tremendous loss and in pondering the lessons learned. These students made a valiant effort to look beyond political schisms and disagreements so that they could pay tribute. This was not, nor should it have been, about building up the barriers between us and engaging in heated rhetoric. Sure, our society has shown prejudice against Muslims. Sure, this is a problem that needs to be addressed. That being said, taking away the power and unity of the 9/11 events, which did in fact include Muslim perspectives, in order to service a political agenda is frankly offensive to all individuals who lost loved ones and others in the midst of the terrorist attacks. Why strip the band-aids from these wounds to the American spirit when they have not yet healed?
Your piece makes it clear that you value the Muslim population highly, and for that you deserve to be commended- but not too highly. In fact, in making broad statements and judgments in which you claim that Muslims in general were, as a blanket statement, more affected than the countless students, faculty members, administrators and the like who suffered human losses, you discredit your stance and come across as exploitative. To level accusations of prejudice and exploitation against a large portion of the student body in order to service an activist agenda and personal political feelings represents rank hypocrisy of the highest order. This article exploits a tragic event with sweeping repercussions in an attempt to turn us towards a more divisive, cynical worldview, and in order to promote a cause that does little to console those who are mourning and remembering in this stormy climate.
Mr. Kaye, I applaud you for exercising your freedom of speech, and for putting forth your contentious opinions in undeniably important topics. However, I, and I do not feel that I am alone on this, would advise you not to exploit the pain of others, to make sweeping statements, or to enflame readers with your fiery and radical language through this medium. This article seems almost designed not to appeal to anyone at the University, since you take on the issues in such an uncomfortable and hypocritical manner, and with such a harsh, condescending, and preachy style. While your support of unabashed affirmative action and polarizing activism may find some supporters at this University, the rest of your content here will push even them away.
I recommend that pieces like this not be put forth to the public in the future. While I value the free expression of opinions, articles of this sort cast a negative light on the Cavalier Daily, and, by extension, on the University community. Why publish a piece that seems, by design, to offend, to exploit, and to irritate?
Never Forget 9/11 says:
September 17, 2011 at 6:33 pm
This comment is intended for Seth Kaye’s “Trick Candles”- comments are closed for that article.
Seth Kaye must have an incredibly inflated ego.
There would be no other reason that he would think people want to read his completely unsubstantiated and disgustingly insensitive opinion.
1. “I looked through the proposed schedule of ribbons, flags, vigil, speeches and barbeque and thought I was reading events for July 4.”
The tragedy and remembrance of September 11 is hardly an occasion for sarcastic humor. I guess you thought you were being cute. You are not.
2. Somehow the “hordes of superb students” planning the University-wide Sept. 11 events left out the part of our community most severely impacted by Sept. 11.
And who is that? Seth Kaye is either incredibly naive or despicably insensitive. There is not one “group” that can claim to be most severely impacted by September 11. September 11 affected everyone. And who are you, Seth Kaye, to tell anyone that they weren’t severely impacted by September 11. I think that the people who lost loved ones, were very severely impacted by Sept. 11. I find it offensive that you attempt to diminish the loss and the tragedy felt by others in the community.
I have many Muslim friends. I realize that Sept. 11 affected them in many ways, but they have never insinuated that their pains were any greater than mine. I think that they would also agree that the remembrance of September 11 should not center around their trials, but should center on the lives of those lost. I think Student Council handled the remembrance events well.
3. “It appeared pretty obvious to me that minority student organizations were not consulted originally in the planning for these Sept. 11 events.”
I know it is a student newspaper and that the guidelines are not as strict as they would be for a real newspaper, but why do the editors let such suppositions come into print. The editor should have made this young man provide more evidence than that it “appears pretty obvious to him.” I really can’t be sure from reading this poorly written opinion whether or not minorities were consulted or whether or not Student Council was in communication with more minority groups or what the rationale was for the events schedules. I would think an opinion like this requires a source, a quote or something that would give the appearance that this author did not just decide 10 minutes ago to put all his uterations down on paper. It seems this response belongs in the comments section where sources and references and research are not required.
Finally, it seems to me this article is not about September 11 or about including more minorities into events at all. It seems to me that it is about Seth Kaye and his beef with Student Council.
Billy says:
September 17, 2011 at 7:45 pm
“somehow the “hordes of superb students” planning the University-wide Sept. 11 events left out the part of our community most severely impacted by Sept. 11.”
This is really an offensive and stupid comment. Tell this to any person who lost a father, mother, spouse, or any loved one in the tragedy and they would punch you in the face.
